John~ Good evening. Are you comfortable?
Phil~ Comfortable as ever, thank you.
John~ Cheeky devil. I suppose like Tolkien said, the best place to begin is the beginning. Now, while you currently live in London, you were born and raised in northern England. Did music play a big part in your upbringing? I know your father is an avid country/western afficionado.
Phil~ I was born in the north-east of England: Peterlee in County Durham. My mother had sung in a choir when she was young, and my dad became a Country singer in later life, but when growing up there wasn't a lot of music in the house. There was the radio, and records, but no-one played an instrument or sang. So music wasn't really important to me until I became a teenager and discovered - 10CC, Queen and Wings, I'm ashamed to say!
John~ Everyone can remember from childhood a record or artist their parents played incessantly which eventually becomes impressed upon the mind, usually to their great discomfort. With me it was my mother and Marty Robbins. I still can't get the stupid song "The Hangin' Tree" out of my head 37 years later, and please don't tell me it's a top tune. Is there such a memory for you?
Phil~ As I said, there was not a lot of music actively played in the house when I was young (not that I remember, anyway). I can't remember the first thing I really liked - though I can remember the first thing I hated - "Yellow Submarine" by The Beatles: (this may well say something about my personality)!
John~ Seems like Ringo bashing, but I was never overly fond of it either. At what age did you learn to play the guitar, and was it easy for you? Are there any other instruments you've mastered, or would like to?
Phil~ I got a guitar when I was 15. Because I was/am such a terrible singer, my mum argued for a long time that I shouldn't have a guitar - she claimed I was "tone deaf" and would never be able to play it! However, learning it was easy - the guitar is a cinch (as long as you're comfortable with being able to play Teenage Kicks rather than Stairway to Heaven). I'd love to be able to play the piano, though. Never got round to it.
John~ The idea that you think you are a terrible singer is laughable, and sad. I mean really, have you ever heard the Flaming Lips? Nick Cave? Phew.... To me at least, you have one of the most memorable and enjoyable voices from the period, no question. You are either being modest to a fault or you really don't get it. When I finally meet your mum as well I'll have to give her a row about almost causing the junies not to be! :) Maybe that's the way of it though, as mothers that think their kids CAN sing are always wrong.
Phil~ The Flaming Lips and Nick Cave are great, as you know! Lots of my favourite vocalists are not singers - Johnny Cash, Johnny Rotten, Lou Reed, Bob Dylan, Jonathan Richman: you wouldn't want them in your choir, but boy can they carry a song!
John~ I can't abide any of them. Well, in honesty, early Johnny Cash is pretty good actually and I disagree with saying he can't sing. Early Rotten is OK, but I always disliked PIL. That was probably due to poor songs though. The rest blow, true enough. It's funny how people like Dylan have this cadre of people swearing he's the greatest gift to music, and everyone else can't stand him. It's really love or hate with these types.
Phil~ Woahh, there! "Second Edition" by PIL is one of my very favourite albums. Admittedly, they're mostly not songs as such, but it's an awesome record! As for the rest, well, I can see your point somewhat. It took me a long time before I could even abide listening to Dylan. As soon as I could, though, I went straight from there to loving him.
John~ As to the guitar comment and it being a "cinch" to learn, I know someone who is trying to learn and is having a hell of a time (not me), and is quite unhappy. What is your advice to him and anyone wishing to learn?
Phil~ Just to keep at it: if you want to do it hard enough, it will come.
John~ Manchester groups often site the Buzzcocks as the influence that drove them on to forming their own band. Was there one particular group you found appealing in this way, or was there a particular moment or concert you attended when you said "this is it"?
Phil~ Yeah, I've said this before. It was seeing a punk band called "The Users" at a local music festival. All the rest of the groups on that day were heavy metal or prog rock, but the Users were young, dumb and full of...attitude. They couldn't play very well, but it simply didn't matter. I thought they were ace, and realised that if they could do it, why shouldn't I give it a go?!
John~ I'll assume being a pop star wasn't your original career goal as a child. Was there anything you really wanted to be when you "grew up"? Like a tax assayer for the Queen?
Phil~ Ha, very funny ;) You are correct in assuming that working in tax policy was not my goal in life! Actually, when I was younger I wanted to be a lorry (i.e. truck) driver, as my dad was at the time. He took me out a few times and it seemed a good life - no boss around, seeing stuff and eating monstrous amounts of food!
John~ I actually did that for about 8 years, as a delivery driver. It was nice to see the land, especially during seasons, but as it was home delivery I had to put up with customers all day, and the stories I could tell! Anyway, did the pop star life appeal to you in particular as it provided an escape from what was a less than ideal childhood?
Phil~ It never appealed to me. I didn't think I would ever be a pop star, or aspire to be one - lucky I wasn't disappointed, really! I did enjoy good reviews and having people who liked us - you could intimate that that was recompense for me for the bad feelings about myself hanging around since my childhood.
John~ Then why do so many English kids wind up in bands then? Seems like everyone has or knows someone who's been in one. Is it seen as a way of getting out of the gutter, or is it not even that contrived and simply just a way of mouthing off to the system?
Phil~ You're right - there are an awful lot of UK bands. I'm not sure why: just seems natural here to get a few mates together and form a band. Though I'm not at all sure that it happens as much as it used to do.
John~ Once the ball got rolling, it seems the pieces fell into place pretty easily forming the group. Is that the case? Did you envision a "sound" for the group beforehand? If so, did it turn out like you'd hoped or was it better or worse in your estimation looking back on it now?
Phil~ The sound happened naturally - people just offering themselves. I'd love to take credit for thinking "wouldn't it be great to add trumpet and viola to beef up the sound?": but the truth is, I didn't! I was damned pleased with how it turned out, though.
John~ Was there a group or sound you liked and wanted to emulate or were you set on being original, or is that all too deep and what happened, well, just happened?
Phil~ No - we never really tried to sound like anyone. I would just write the songs, and maybe some simple lead guitar line or trumpet line, and the group would add what came naturally. It was not contrived at all.
John~ Were any of the junies problem children? Or at any time did you find yourself playing "mother hen", or was it a very informal easy going affair? Was there a feeling it was PHIL'S band or OUR band?
Phil~ Every band bickers - it would be unnatural to spend so much time with people and not argue occasionally. But we didn't argue that much - and if there ever was a serious dispute, Big Jon would often be the leader in resolving it. Regarding ownership, I'd like to think they believed the Junies to be "our" band - but I'm sure if you asked them they'd probably say I acted as if it was mine at times!
John~ From the beginning to the end the position of drummer was never a steady one. Was there a reason for this? Makes it seem they were the smart ones but we all know drummers are the thick ones in a group.
Phil~ Drummers are a problematic species :) We went through 4. Sitting at the back of a band hitting things - well, there has to be something a bit weird in your make up to make you want to do that!
John~ How long did it take to compose the songs for the first LP? Did you find writing them real work or did they "drop into your head from heaven" as Albrecht always says? Did you do it alone or in concert with the others?
Phil~ The songs were written over a few months. Like Berny Albrecht, I find tunes easy to write, but hate doing the words! The first few lines seem to flow from nowhere, but the rest is hard work. I could have written a lot more, but was too lazy...I would only write new songs when we had to have them for singles, sessions or whatever. Most of the songs were written by me alone, though Bees wrote a couple and others contributed bits and their own arrangements.
John~ Now the old chicken or egg. What comes first, lyrics or tune?
Phil~ The tune. It's always first. They just come out of the ether whenever I pick up a guitar.
John~ What was your favourite guitar and why? You don't impress me as the type who worries over your instruments, or acquiring special guitars like it makes a difference like Roddy Frame. (didn't matter what guitar he held after the 2nd LP anyway, phew) Whatever's handy will do. Is that a fair guess?
Phil~ The semi-acoustic I had at the end of the Junies (a Tokai copy of a 59 (?) Gibson, for those who care) was the best - mainly cos it would actually stay in tune. Most of the previous ones had been cheap. Which reminds me, one wasn't: it was an actual Gibson and some bugger in Manchester nicked it. Swine!!!
John~ I had a Guild T-100 electric hollow body from 1967 but sold it. Never had time to learn, and despite your attitude, I didn't find it a "cinch" either. Yet I stepped into hand tool furniture building without missing a beat, so I suppose it's a genetic thing.
Phil~ Maybe. Or mabe you didn't try hard enough ;)
John~ Perhaps, but I didn't seem to connect with it. Keyboard and drums seem more natural to me. OK, now it's been some years but as I remember it, once the LP came out everyone fell ass backwards over it. Everyone, popdom included (which includes the likes of Morrissey) were all queued up to give your arse a royal patting and proclaim "I lurved em first". Did it seem that way, and did it all happen unexpectedly?
Phil~ It was a real surprise to us that it got such good reviews and respect. Though, because we never got paid properly and the label didn't tell us how many it sold, we had no feeling as to how many people actually owned the thing.
John~ You must have had some inkling when it went to #1, no? Or were you so busy and it happened so fast you blinked and it was gone?
Phil~ Something like that. We were busy at the time and did not really know how many it actually took to get an independent number 1. It was only a couple of years later that we found out it had sold tens of thousands of copies (still don't know how many)
John~ So there you were, the LP was at #1 on the indy charts, you were gracing the cover of the NME, and Morrissey rings up and says "please support my group on tour". You must have been thinking, "Blimey, we did it". Was the feeling among you all that the carrot was within reach, or that in fact, you held it?
Phil~ It's hard to describe. We almost didn't really think about it at all. It was always "So, what's next?". We'd never planned to be anything other than a band and to maybe make a single - anything else that happened was unexpected and accidental!
John~ Who was scheduling your tours and dates then?
Phil~ In the early days we did it ourselves. Mainly by organising "swap" gigs with people like Big Flame, Yeah Yeah Noh and the Close Lobsters: they'd organise a gig in their town with us, we'd organise something in London. Rough Trade's booking Agency worked for us (quite badly!) later on in the career.
John~If Moz was so enamoured of you why did Bragg do the first tour of the states in 85 with them and not you? Was it the "peanut incident", or the lack of a real manager?
Phil~ Probably because we blew them off stage every night! (Just kidding..;) Don't know - you'd have to ask them. We'd have bloody loved to do it. We always wanted to play America.
John~ I'm sure America wanted you too. ;) Did you ever lie in bed and entertain the thought of being a U2 type monster group, touring the world and playing huge stadiums? Even as a lark? Before you answer, the impression I have is that none of you ever gave much of it any thought, not even the day to day, and when the success did come, it was as much a surprise to you as anyone and quite possibly not even realized for what it was because nobody was thinking that far ahead.
Phil~ You're right, as I said before, none of it had been planned. Playing with The Smiths actually really put me off. At that point I would definitely have said no to superstardom! The Smiths appeared to have no fun whatsoever on the tour. They were regimented and organised by their management to the point that they seemed to be the servants of the management rather than the other way round. I thought it was awful and actually felt sorry for them. Being big looked like a bad deal.
John~ Well, imagine being stuck with Morrissey day in, day out. That's not my idea of fun. I think it's what you make it, and that was a group getting ready to devour itself.
Phil~ Could well be - they obviously weren't very happy any more being The Smiths.
John~ At any point did you encounter the pangs of celebrity? What I mean is, then, or even now, have you experienced the awkward moment of being "recognized" in public by someone? (besides a creditor ;) If so, did it happen at the typical akward time like standing at a urinal or deciding which fish to buy at a shop? Did you ever meet an obsessive fan?
Phil~ Not really. It was more lads at concerts approaching me to do interviews for their fanzines! Although, having said that, one fan did track me down to the house and she'd turn up there quite often. It was a bit odd - she would hardly dare to speak! And before you ask, you seedy minded American, she was very attractive, but no, I did not take advantage!
John~ Why, I didn't think it for a minute....Back to the records. From the first single "In the Rain" to 8 Million stories, what remains to this day your favourite song in this period and why?
Phil~ Of the early songs, I am very fond of Every Conversation. I was proud of writing it - the words and tune both. It was also a great experience for me as a song-writer. I'd never written something in that style, and Every Conversation came through a conscious effort to write a different sort of tune. That it worked really encouraged me to experiment further.
John~ Looking back, are you happy with the LP, or is there anything you'd go back and change if you could?
Phil~ I would like to remix it. The tunes are there, but the production is so weak that I believe it's off-putting: most people can't get passed the horrible production to actually listen to the songs. (At this point the dialogue degenerated into a discourse akin to the Bickersons. Both claiming the other insane. Let us put it this way, Phil contends had he to do it over, the songs would be recorded differently. I pointed out that he isn't the same lad he was 16 years ago when he did do it, and I'm sure he did the best he could at the time and was quite proud of it FOR WHAT IT WAS and we all loved it FOR WHAT IT WAS. Reminded me of the plainly beautiful girl looking in the mirror and complaining she's ugly. So until you redo one Phil and show us what you mean, we'll let this dog lie)
John~ I often wondered about the imagery on the back of the LP, that being apparently Simon Beesley floating up to heaven with a guitar in one hand, and a choir of angels greeting him. Did you have aspirations of topping him?
Phil~ Ha! Ha! No! My ex-wife actually drew the picture. She always had a thing about being like an innocent child, and drifting off in his dream world. That's Simon drifting off to his happlyland.
John~ Ironic she chose him then. Is that because if it had been you, she'd have drawn you going in the opposite direction?
Phil~ More than likely!
John~ Also, the pics on the insert, which were also seen in other places, often showed a large poster of a man and woman hanging behind you at gigs. What was it, and did you intend it to become part of Juniedom like the Smiths did with their singles photos? The picture always had a very indypop feel to it for me, if such a thing is possible.
Phil~ We did use the picture as a backdrop at several gigs. We thought it would be good to have something that reflected the group - the image of a bride and groom was obvious, but we liked it! It was used on several early gig posters, and we then painted it as a backdrop (behind the picture above). The idea was to make the pubs we played in feel a bit more connected the group.
John~ Where did the LP name come from? Were any others considered that you remember?
Phil~ It came from the old punk rock idea that every one had a decent song in them. "There are 8 million Stories in the naked city" - that one just happened to be ours. The only alternative one I can remember is "Destroying Capitalism with The June Brides". That still kind of has a ring to it for me. Actually, the idea of calling it "Destroying Capitalism with The June Brides" was a complete pisstake of the likes of bands such as The Redskins and Easterhouse. As if pop music could destroy capitalism! And how can you release a "product" which you hope to sell and be against capitalism?!
John~ Was the recording of the LP an easy thing, or was it something that had to be mastered? (pun not intended) Alfred Hitchcock was noted for seeing a whole film in his head beforehand, and the filming was simply a matter of finalizing it. Is it that way with you, you already hear the song and it's simply the matter of laying it down, or do they go in bare bones and get fleshed out there? Or is it more complicated?
Phil~ The songs were always worked out well in advance: so recording the individual parts was pretty easy. However, the "sound" of it was something we never properly thought about - and we really should have.
John~ I disagree. It came out fine, regardless of the method used.
John~ On the Peel sessions EP, there is a song called "One Day" which I have always been somewhat curious about, as to me it does not fit into any "genre" or period of June Bride songs at all. Was it an earlier or later tune, and am I mistaken in thinking it is a departure from the norm? What do you think of it also?
Phil~ "One Day" was quite a late tune, and you're right in saying that it is different to most of the things we did. As with "Every Conversation", I was experimenting with trying to find new ways of writing tunes. In this case, I tried a different guitar tuning to see how it sounded - I liked it, and wrote the song around that. I'm pleased with it - it's one of the songs that shows that we were not the simple jangly fun we were occasionally caricatured as being.
John~...If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me? (just a bit of levity to lighten the proceedings)Phil~ No. But the offer was kind.
John~ How many Junie groupies actually did say that though? I understand you were all noted for your, well not piety, but lets say good behaviour. Do we regret that now?
Phil~ There were many, many offers. But I personally never took up any of them up. I don't regret it at all - God knows, I would probably have only felt guilty if I'd ever dipped my wick where I shouldn't. And there is always the fear of disease - sleep with a groupie and you're also sleeping with all the bands she's been with in the last few years (that particular thought is a very good one for putting you off should you ever be tempted!)
John~ So, did the junies draw lookers or the stereotyped bad toothed, bow legged "freshin yer drink guvner" types? Any breast flashing, or is that an American phenomenon? I only ask as it's required for posterity. ;)
Phil~ I will no longer tolerate such sexist questioning ;)
John~ Then I'll ask another. Did any of you give into the carnal proceedings? What I mean to say is, have you any good dirt on anyone? (even or especially non-Junies?)
Phil~ My lips are sealed as to who. But I'll give you a clue: except for me, all the chaps were single, bar one, and all the group were atheists, bar one. The Christian with the girlfriend was the one who, almost every gig, was being a bad lad.
John~ Yes, we all know about catholic girls. Guess it applies to the boys also. How would you describe a day as a Junie? I mean, did you have your "Hard Days Night's" or was it more easy going?
Phil~ Hard to say - some days were mad, when you're touring or recording. You end the day absolutely exhausted. On the other hand, we also spent a lot of time at home, penniless and bored!
John~ What was your most memorable gig from this period?
Phil~ There were lots of great moments. One of the best was playing with The Jesus and Mary Chain at The Ambulance station in London. It was just a great night, we had a good concert, most of the people in the London music scene were there, the Go-Betweens were there and I met them for the first time, the place was buzzing with excitement for the Chain and they played a great short set which ended in chaos and practically a riot. Top fun!
John~ Jim and William Reid are a pair of sodding pricks. I met them once, and literally had to threaten Jim to sign an NME for me. He held the pen like a 4 year old (well no, my daughter writes better than him) and William was even worse. Douglas Hart, the bass player, was quite nice however.
Phil~ They made great music, though. If you got famous for being nice I'd be Michael Jackson now :)
John~ A bleached white, surgically altered wacko? God I hope not. I didn't say the chain wasn't great musically, only their personalities stank. Anyway, not having been privy to one of these events, were Junies concerts noted for anything? I mean, the Smiths had flowers, the Pogues had drunks etc...
Phil~ Do spotty blokes in glasses count?!
John~ If not there's no one to count then :) I think I have a picture of one of them in a red sweater. He's under some junies posters, must have been president of the fan club. Wait, I have the picture right here....
I imagine halfway thru a show you must have had a stop so everyone could have a drink of apple juice and recover? Come now, must have been more exiting than that? You make it sound like the junies symbol should have been a pocket protector. I've heard English bands say English crowds just sort of stand there during a show. Is that true? Here, it was all crazy. I remember being in the middle of a semi "mosh" pit during a Madness concert. Wasn't as carried away as kids get today but quite good fun. That show was a blast. I was drenched in sweat when it was over.
Phil~ No, our gigs were often great fun, loads of dancing, stage invasions etc. Although there was an awful lot of standing around and trying to look cool at other gigs, ours tended to be more fun (people may find that hard to believe, but it's true! - just wait till we get a video clip on the site!)
John~ I believe it, as it coincides with the raw fun style of the group. Of course the reason I was not privy was that you never came to America. (bastard) The reason behind that I'm sure lies with your pick of labels. First off, what other labels, if any, did you have the chance to sign with before Pink, and why did you choose them?
Phil~ Before Pink, there was no interest from other labels. Pink got in very very early in our career - after maybe a handful of gigs in all- and seemed like good guys. Let's not also forget that just to release a record was the only goal at that point. So it seemed a good idea to go with them.
John~ I know that turned out to be the biggest mistake the band made. Would you care to explain to everyone what happened?
Phil~Subsequently we had offers from Go! Discs, Stiff, Parlaphone and others I can't remember. They were all offering lots of money, but we turned them all down. We believed in independent labels, and the old punk rock spirit. To become part off the roster at a major, at that point, would have felt like a betrayal of all we'd believed in. I believe I might not be pushing a pen for Her Madge if we'd decided differently, but, what the hell, you can't go back so have to make the most of the decisions you made. At least I can be smug about never selling out!!
John~ Yes, all the way to the alms house. Anyway, what you say was certainly very true back then. It was literally looked upon as a crime to try to be successful, by in effect signing to a major label. It could literally lose one their entire following. Again, it was the English hatred of money and trying to make it. Today, these young English upstarts don't seem to have that trouble, and seem quite ready to embrace the Pound and Dollar. The flip side to it is they suck. Is there a connection here do you think?
Phil~ I think so - once you're in music for the sake of making money you lose the spirit and sense of adventure that made you good in the first place.
John~ At what point did it become clear all was not right with the label? Did the band handle it well, or did it get nasty? For those un-aware, the Junies "8 Million.." probably sold between 50-100,000 copies worldwide, and they saw, well, about a dime. You'll say nay Phil, but you were so in the dark you still don't think the LP sold well in the US, I'm here to tell you it did. In my little backwater my friend sold many copies himself at his store. You couldn't be so well remembered if nobody bought it.
Phil~ We had no idea of the extent of the sales until a couple of years after we'd split up. By then, who could afford a lawyer to go and sort it out? and who would want to - it's so much spilt milk by then...
John~ When and how did the end come? Was it abrupt or drug out? How did everyone take it, and were there desires to plug on?
Phil~ It just kind of expired naturally. I can't remember anyone in particular saying "Let's split up". The idea emerged and we concurred with it. In retrospect, I think we could have gotten over the low period and tried again. But at the time....
John~ How did you take it?
Phil~ With my customary dignity and good humour :)
John~ Hah! You do have a sense of humor! I don't believe it though, not for a minute. Otherwise, you wouldn't care now. You'll NEVER admit it, but I know you do. You want comments, you want recognition, you love to hear how YOUR group effected the lives of even spotty bastards in Virginia. And why not? In my book, you earned it. You were one of the greats, during a period of giants. I bet your wife would agree in a second. (with the first part that is)
Phil~ When the Junies were over, I did feel relieved. It had been difficult for a while, and it was good to end it whilst we were still talking to each other. Obviously, hindsight tells me it may not have been a good idea - but it felt right at the time and I was happy with it then.
John~ Well, that should about do it. I thank you for allowing yourself to be put under such a strong "beam" as it were. I didn't pull any punches, and I thank you for your honesty. Perhaps some time we can do a part 2 covering the solo years. So until then, for all lovers of things jangly and poptastic, I'd like to give my thanks to you for what the Junies were, and what they meant to those of us brilliant enough to see and appreciate it. Thank you Jon, Adrian, Simon, Frank and of course Mr. Wilson.
Phil~ I assure you, it was a pleasure.